another idea for an anthropological study
Yesterday, some of us were talking about the calling the Dean of the Harvard Business School got to step down and take over a small Idaho Mormon college, which led to a discussion on Mormons, which in turn led to a discussion on the Amish people. And someone brought up the statistic that 80-85% of Amish teenagers choose to return to the Amish lifestyle after their sabbatical year away from Amish life. I mentioned this to a CH friend of mine, commenting that CH doesn’t see anywhere near that rate of return. She proposed that it could partly be because the Amish teenagers are not only encouraged to go out and see the world, but they are warmly welcomed back after having partied for a year. But in Crown Heights, not only do you have to rebel to see what the outside world is like, but if you ever want to return, you’ll be stigmatized for life.
posted by Goldie @ 2:13 PM
19 Comments:
The sabatical year is called rumspringa--I was very interested in it last year for some reason. I've actually read that it's something like 95%, which I found fascinating...until someone pointed out to me that most of these teenagers aren't really equipped to make it in the outside world, given the experiences and (limited) schooling they've had. At least people from CH are familiar with electricity and have finished high school.
Yeah, I think it is pretty fascinating. You think after a year of living in modern society they're still not equipped to live in the outside world? I mean, how hard could it be to get used to modern plumbing? But I guess there is the element of not really being able to relate to people outside of "Amish land," etc. On some level, I can relate, since I can see how growing up as an ultra-orthodox Jew forever affects the way one thinks and acts and can hinder one’s ability to ever really break free, hence the founding of footsteps…So perhaps Amish people feel it on an even more exaggerated level. Anyway, would make a great study. Too bad I have such a difficult time thinking up interesting engineering phenomena to research…
I think it might be more that they lack concrete skills like higher math, science, or even using a computer, which could make it really hard to get a job...but I'm not sure.
Footsteps looks interesting--I can imagine so many people I know fainting at the sight of it, though; it's the polar opposite of all the Kiruv work people do. Well, not really polar opposite, since it sounds like she only supports people in their chosen path rather than trying to convince them how to lead their lives.
I realized last week that (I think) the constant presence/discussion of an omnipotent/perfect being when I was growing up has led me to expect too much from people, because I don't realize how fallible they are and how impossible and unlikely it is for anyone to be perfect.
In response to your three paragraphs, numbered 1, 2, and 3, respectively:
1. Well, they’re still teenagers, don’t you think they could learn that stuff? Despite their limited education, I bet they could do fairly well, by applying to Harvard, or the like, and getting in since they would significantly contribute to diversity at the institution.
2. Yeah, the founder, at heart, is really just a good Lubavitcher, doing exactly what she was trained do: reaching out to Jews in need and helping them find their true selves...
3. Really? I didn’t have that impressed on me growing up, in fact I expect very little from people…Although, I do, oddly enough, trust people, probably a lot more than I should…
This is so freaky! I just posted about Amish on my blog, and now I see that almost simultaniously you were posting about the same thing. Very cool.
I think it's different in their world because we are confronted by choices and challenges every day. And our exposures to those things that challenge our "path" are constant, while these kids are thrown into a chaotic world of drugs and crime and are told that this is what the "English" do, and if they want security and peace they have to be Amish. And once they become Amish all the exposure and temptation goes away.
Hmm, now I'm curious to do some more investigation about the Amish, to see whether there's some factor I'm not seeing or they really do flat-out choose to return to the community.
Did you not have the omnipotence and omniscience of God impressed upon you, or did you just not transfer that to people? I guess somehow (for a long period of time) I really swallowed the idea that somehow up there the puzzle pieces all fit together, even if that doesn't seem possible, and the idea that God can and does do anything to make things go a specific way. I can't quite explain how I think this transferred to people; maybe it's how intentional it makes everything seem...leads to thinking people are always intentional, which they're not.
Dovid: You raise an interesting point, but I’m not sure how sound it is, if at all.
our exposures to those things that challenge our "path" are constant
Why do you say our challenges are anymore constant than the Amish?
these kids are thrown into a chaotic world of drugs and crime
That’s a bit of an extreme statement…I wouldn’t say that the “outside world” is quitethe chaotic world of drugs and crime that you describe it as. I’m out “there,” and I found that if you don’t look for these things, you don’t encounter them very often at all. For instance, in my over five years away, except for a few select occasions (when the Jews acquired pot to smoke in the “spirit” of simchas torah, when I was offered marijuana brownies, sadly, also on simchas torah, and the guy down the hall and his stories of snorting cocaine from an apple), I’m not sure I’d know how to find drugs if I was looking for them…
And once they become Amish all the exposure and temptation goes away.
Again, why any more so than in Crown Heights? Okay, the Amish are a bit more secluded from the outside world, but if one stays within the boundaries of Crown Heights, I think it’s relatively insular, which is what makes it so stifling to live there. One is under the constant scrutiny of watchful eyes, and there is very little that you can feel comfortable doing in Crown Heights. Unless I’m not sure what you mean by temptations…And besides, the Amish have religious rules that they can just as easily break within Amishtown…
Miriam: The return rate was surprising to me when I first heard it, but when I think about it, it makes some sense to me. In many ways, there’s something very genuine about their lives, and these kids are raised “pure and innocent,” and when they go out to the world and have their fun, at the end of the day, they realize that the quality of life back at home is better for them, and it’s all they know…But really, I know very little about the Amish, so I shouldn’t be hypothesizing here…
Google quote of the day:
Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.
- Albert Einstein
Our challenges are more constant than the Amish because we are more exposed than them. We have to make choices every day; they need to make a choice only once in their lives.
And the world we are exposed to is much more appealing. We live in normal communities that may have normal non-Jewish communities too that may be appealing. We dont equate being non-religious with being stoned and in jail. These kids, because of the nature of rumspringa, as oon as they're free, will engage in very bad behavior, and the Amish sit by and allow them to do this because they want the kids to equate the "outside world" with misery and adiction and what not. And once they go back to the Amish church, bam, thyre back in this insular bubble and and support system, and they can never really leave after that.
I was talking about Crown Heights in particular, and I wouldn’t quite say that there is the presence of “normal non-Jewish communities too that may be appealing” (but maybe that's just me). And plenty of Crown Heightsers break free and “engage in very bad behavior,” and they still don’t come back. But anyway, there are definitely differences between Crown Heights and Amish town (obviously), and I don’t know which differences specifically would explain the very high return rate of the Amish, but my point was to comment that perhaps because of the similiarities that do exist, I think it would make an interesting study to consider why Crown Heightsers rarely come back as opposed to the Amish.
Come on, are you kidding me?! How many 16 year olds do you know who have left Lubavitch for good? It's usually later that the kids seriously rebel and break free. And that later is too late for the Amish.
Well, 16 year olds in Lubavitch don't really have the option to leave...And I don't know of very many people in Crown Heights in general (I'm not very well connnected, and I don't keep up with the gossip), but I do actually know at least a couple 16 years olds (they may have been younger...) that did leave and did not return, and I know of quite a few more that were older, while I can't say I know anyone that came back...
But again, I haven't actually done any research on this, so this is just from my personal and very limited exposure.
That’s a bit of an extreme statement…I wouldn’t say that the “outside world” is quitethe chaotic world of drugs and crime that you describe it as. I’m out “there,” and I found that if you don’t look for these things, you don’t encounter them very often at all.
From speaking to some of the people I work with (random Hampden people)--the academic world is very different from the rest of the world. Not that the drugs and crime aren't present, but they're far less visible and people don't get in trouble for them as often as in the rest of the world. Many people who seem decent have somewhat sordid histories.
(Er, that is--crime and drugs are less visible in the academic world. People in the rest of the world who are nice sometimes still have drug or crime histories.)
Jehova Witnesses have a similar system, and from what I hear from those guys, you aren't really given the option of not returning. Your family will sever all ties with you if you do not return. Contrast this with Crown Heights, where you'd have to marry out for similar treatment.
Miriam: I’m sure…but where are these Amish kids getting sent anyway? Are they really intentionally sending them to the scummiest areas they could find? I’ve been exposed to places other than the academic world. I mean I have worked: in Yardage Town, as a telemarker, even doing assembly line work, etc. I admit I’m naïve (a friend from Hopkins was just telling me earlier today that college is really just one big orgy…), but surely the Amish are even more so…
Well maybe I'm not quite so naïve anymore...Too much exposure to people attempting to corrupt innocent orthodox girls...
"Plolar opposite" of kiruv would be something like daat emet. I don't think such organizations exist in the US that specifically target Orthodox Jews.
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